SC5000 High End Roll-off


#21

Try both the ISO and EQ mode for the X1800 eq, and have a listen to decide which you prefer. You may find that you prefer one setting for certain parts of your set, or for certain genres etc and the other setting for different times.


#22

@SlayForMoney today tested the players with an other mixer. There is stillt a difference to hear, but i´ve noticed even playing a track in the Prime software there´s a bit of highs missing.


#23

Still not satisfied with the sound of tracks played in the engine prime software or on the player(SC5000 Prime). There are highs missing and it sounds muddy/compressed.

I did a back an forth comparison with a track played in the software and the original file. There is a difference. Just recorded one track playing in the engine prime software and imported it to cubase, where i cut back an forth between the original and the recording. Still a noticeable difference.

The same issue when playing the track on a SC5000 connected to a x1800 via digital cable and comparing it with the original file on a laptop hooked up to the x1800 via usb. Maybe i can upload a sound sample or something to show you guys? The music playing was hardstyle.

Anyone else noticed something like that?


#24

Whilst you’re the only person mentioning “muddy” tracks , your comment about the playback tempo rung a bell from a question from one other user, way back last summer.

Can you find one track which definitely does this and use a utility to remove ALL of the ID3 tag /meta tag data off of the track header. Then just type in tags for song title, artist and try playing the track through the SC5000 and/or engine Prime again . Don’t let any software apps populate any other metadata tags.

Let us know how that goes please


#25

Which one is “muddy”? Logic tells you that there can be a difference between a software decoded file (especially if played from Engine Prime library software, which is supposed to be used as a mean of previewing files and not a performing DJ software with superior decoding quality) and a hardware decoded one (HQ decoding chip on the SC5000).

So you basically compared Engine Prime decoding and Cubase. It’s no wonder a library software is not on the same level.

Sorry, I know this doesn’t solve the problem with the SC5000 units but it’s important not to draw wrong conclusions.


#26

The Sc5000 sounded muddy. And the other Source was a MacBook pro, Track played Somply on iTunes thru the x1800 via USB.

Yeah that was just to cut back and forth between sources. But the Track played in Winamp or Mediaplayer sounded better too. Don’t realy know a better solution to compare. Its a bit annoying when you play a Track and think “something doesnt sound right”. I’ll test a bit more Today when im back home.


#27

Thanks. Can you try the tag removal suggestion (above) when you get the chance. Some tags can drastically effect playback, and not all 3rd party apps write their tags correctly.


#28

So today i did a bit more of testing…

I removed the tag, but that did not help.

So i did some other things: I generated a white and a pink noise in cubase and bounced them as 2 wavs. Then i copied both on a usb drive and on my macbook. Connected the usb drive to one of the SC5000 prime player and the Macbook to the x1800 via usb. Player was connected to the x1800 via digital cable. After that i recorded both noises played from the sc5000 and than from the macbook. (both recorded from the x1800 with cubase and a focusride soundcard via xlr). Then i looked at both recordings through an analyser.

Those where the results (if that helps in anyway, dont really know how to show you guys :wink: ) Pink noise ( SC5000 on the left and macbook on the right)

White Noise

I also did the same with both noises recorded from the engine prime software and compared everything.

As i sad i don´t know if this is any proof for my Problem, but i really don´t know what else to do. I really love these players, thats why i choose them instead of the Pioneers.


#29

Thanks for doing the tag test. Did you remove the all of the tags using a tag stripper or just one of two tags.

Audio spectrum wise, there’s bound to be differences between any two recording paths, even when using digital connections etc on units outside of the recording/analysing device.

Anyway. At this stage, and as this seems to be a unique issue, for you. It might be worth resourcing those particular music tracks from a different source and if still an issue, getting the units looked at by a service centre utilising your warranty.


#30

Could you upload the pink and white noise wav files anywhere. Just to see what I would see.

Thanks


#31

Okay didn´t really know where to upload… I Packed some files into the archive: Some screenshots, the pink and the white noise and a part of the track where i was cutting back and forth.


#32

@Distorterz

Did some quick testing and can indeed confirm that the higher end of the spectrum is missing on the SC. I would describe it being less crisp, but not muddy. Now, these are screen caps, so it fluctuates a bit in the low end. But all will get the idea, I think.

Playing white noise on an RME digital interface on X1800 shows this at my analyzer:

Playing the same file on the SC with digital link on the X1800 gives this:


#33

would be interesting to see the same test performed with using rekordbox and CDJ …


#35

Okay lets call it less crisp, but noteceable when playing certain Tracks :wink:


#36

A couple of useful pieces of information for this.

As we know, and appreciate, the timestretch/Key Adjust coding on the SC5000 is stunningly good at keeping sound very clean and clear, even at extreme pitches. It also has anti-cliping coding built-in, so if a track has very high peaks (as seen during the timestretch - even at 0.0%), safety clipping can cut in.

Try listening to the “less crisp” track with the “Key Adjust” option turned off. Try also, mastering the same track at a lower level and re-trying the test.

The other observation would be that with tests involving the X1800, remember that the mixers presets allow for the mixer to be set to various sample rates. Ensure this is set to 96khz, unless there’s anything else in a particular set-up which cant match up to that sampling rate. (The SC5000’s are 96khz compliant as-is)


#37

Key Adjust on/off: no difference or better SC output.

Sample rate 44 - 96kHz: no difference or better SC output.

I played the file as-is at its low level: no difference or better SC output.

I “normalized” the file at 0dB: no difference or better SC output.

Mixer preset has nothing to do with it. Both SC and RME go in digitally into the mixer and go out to the same analyzer. I cannot, as you know, test the analogue inputs at this moment. A 44kHz audio file that does not give good measures at the 44kHz sampling rate of the mixer, will not suddenly sound better when changing the mixer to 96kHz.

My useful information would be, that most music (even wav or flac) do not go that high in the audio spectrum. Only very few hi-hats are ticking 20kHz with lesser volume than the white noise. The rest of the sound on the SC seems to be well defined. I don’t use any tags in my wav files btw., because in wav there is no defined standard way to do this (it was never agreed upon how).

Then again, competing with an RME interface (or Antelope etc.) is a bar that most brands don’t reach. You should go and check out the ADI-2 Pro; unbelievable! The X1800 itself to me sounds like an RME. Clear and transparent.


#38

not replying to any single person on this discussino directly but really this reminds me in a nice way about the 10 year old talks about 320kbs MP3 songs verzus WAV or other formats an all. It really doesnt matter.

Not one customer is going to come storming across the dancefloor demanding a crisper sound or anyhting like that.

this is a nice technical background audiophiles discussion but when the overall output of the SC5000 and X1800 is being reported back as being better than the normal booth kit, its all sort of falls into the category of trivia. You know, kinda nice to know but not all that.


#39

That might be true, but you can clearly hear a difference in the file Cut_back_forth.wav, where switched between the Original file played through the x1800 and the SC5000. The high crisp sound of the synths are suddenly gone. The rest sounds fine.

Of course no customer is going to say: hey where are the highs? In many small clubs the speakers are screaming anyway. That was not the point. I was not hunting to find an issue. I was just doing some mixes and sometimes i thought: That does not sound right, there is something missing. And hearing back the recording of a mix i was a bit dissapointed. Maybe its the type of music I´m playing, where you can really spot the difference.


#40

I get your point, but shouldn’t the professional be the one who dictates what his/hers audience hears?

This is one of the reasons I do not perform as a DJ for 15 years or so; it is not about music or quality sound anymore. At every festival or venue, we see L’Acoustics, Function One, Void etc. but the DJ plays his mp3’s and YouTube rips…

The second reason is that, when I should go to a festival or venue, I am that guy that shakes his head to the DJ and wisely go home. Now, I did go to Underworld and must say it’s still is possible to enjoy quality sound, but that was “live”.

I only play at home now, so for me it’s all about music and sound quality. That has nothing to do with being an audiophile or not. So I get the issue Distorterz is addressing, albeit that I don’t play lots of trancey synth hard-style tracks mastered to be LOUDDD, so didn’t really notice it. And I normally do hear immediately when a bad compression kills a track.

To wrap this up.

Is something wrong: yes, it’s audible and also measurable.

Is Distorterz wrong: definitely no, but one could argue about his music taste :wink: . I hear exactly what he means in the back-forth wav.

Could it be solved: perhaps, when it has to do with processing algorithms in the unit. There should be enough power, unless it’s hardware related.

Compared to competition: I don’t own Pio, so cannot test.

Edit: Analogue sound out from SC to RME and recording the white noise with the RME, shows exactly the same graph as the digital output of the SC. It has to be the processing of the file by the SC.


#41

Hey :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: … Yeah thats what i ment by saying “maybe its the type of music I was playing.” But its the type of music i play in clubs. I hear many types of music, but don´t have many other tracks from other genres to play on the SC5000. When i played some house or hiphop tracks with a friend on them you couldn´t hear that problem so much, thats true.