I think you’re backtracking now. For most Prime 4 users, they are not going to be missing much on the Prime 4 compared to the standalones unless we’re talking about the M. The NXS2 is such a standard that those who can get the system and want to stay with Pioneer, almost invariably do.
I’m not. It’s true.
I work on a ship and the full set up isn’t as practical as a smaller unit, for obvious reasons of travel.
Now if they could give me the features of a full Prime setup in a handy, portable case then I’ll take it… and they did!
Had the Prime 4 not been released or not on the radar I’d have taken the option of the full size setup but I’d have been worried every time I joined the ship. I have a 40kg weight limit and that includes a suitcase of clothes/supplies for six months. I’d have paid a fortune for the luggage alone. Denon DJ made it ideal for me.
Also, the feature set of the P4/Full Prime is more or less inline with what the RX/Nexus setup is. The problem is that the full Primes do more from the get-go, this means the P4 does more.
The P4 isn’t designed with clubs in mind (not saying they won’t appear in smaller clubs). They aren’t “pro” enough for the Ministry of Sound or Fabric. They are pro enough for a wedding or small bar that would have picked up the X-range of Pioneer products up.
By giving us the P4 at this price it highlights the ridiculous price of the RX. The P4 does more than the MCX8000 but that came in at £899. I feel there is £600 between the MCX8000 meaning the P4 is spot on.
I agree and have been thinking that the Prime 4 is a real bargin and under priced by a few hundred £/$
But the way Pioneer do the bracketing you speak of is truly awful and if im honest one of the main reasons I have moved away from them.
For me personally they have features I want scatterd all over their line up with no one product not even the flaship stuff having it all so I can spend all that cash on the flagship setup and still be missing features from a much cheaper bit of kit I want, that is very flustrating especially if you have just spent 5-6k!
I agree at current prices the Prime 4 will take sales from the SC5000/X1800 while I was choosing between the two it was a very very very close run thing and if there hadnt been the shipping delays I would have ended up with a P4 over the SC5000/X1800 and they would have lost £1700 in sales
Having said that Denon should not go down the same route at least not to the same extent IMO.
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Then it looks like a price bump on the Prime 4 would be more in order. I do think installation-type features like sync disable and owner lockout by serial number (to, say, do on-screen customization or Beast Mode enable and then lock the unit from changing the settings) would be sufficient minimal feature bracketing combined with a price bump. Leaving out key play by the pads and other things people would want on lower-tier Prime, like on-screen customization or Beast Mode on the Prime 4 or a 2ch version, wouldn’t be necessary then. That would make sense, too, from the standpoint of marketing the flagship units intended for venue installs.
Installation type features? Which pro dj gear available today has these features you describe?
Why? So it would no longer be affordable?
Remember there are buyers in low income country, students, people who will consider it solely because of the price point.
I think the more people joining the prime family the better…no barriers especially artificial financial ones.
Come on now… what are we supposed to do, provide coupons for the third-world or something? The flagship units are not really being treated as flagship units sufficiently by InMusic anymore, but rather more like first rough iterations. Tension knobs don’t work right, so let’s just drop that. Add new features, put new labels and functions on the buttons. It’s more like the Emu XL-7 vs the PX-7, and the latter mostly replaced the former in the market rather than coexisting with it.
The Gemini MDJ-line has the ability to turn off on-screen info. Denon DN-X1700 has owner lockout, though it is not serial number protected. It’s not that hard to put the unit into that owner mode to start monkeying around with stuff in it, hence the serial number usage as passcode as a solution to it… something the owner/installer can find out on the bottom of the unit but a random user can’t find out. The Xone DB4, A&H’s flagship digital mixer, also has a variety of installation features the DB2 lacks. You can also go into the analog Xones and move a jumper around to limit the amount of resonance available, since analog filters are capable of feeding back and squealing to the point of killing tweeters. Installation features along those lines and from that perspective would be useful on the flagship models and appropriately-missing from the lower tiers of Prime.
Denon DJ confirmed on these forums a while ago that the Prime 4 and SC5000/M units will have the same firmware and features going forward. It will make it easier to code the firmware for the entire family when everything pro product is working from the same page.
Keep going forward with what Denon DJ are doing. Their price point is attracting an amazing following and it’s won rave reviews. This is the shot in the arm Denon DJ needed after the pre-InMusic & MCX8000 days and have really nailed a product in every conceivable way.
The new set of features will be in the MK2 version of the SC5000 that will arrive in a few years time will be the true test. It will have a two year head start over the Prime 4 MK2 so will be able to have a few new bells and whistles for early adopters.
Phones have tech that trickle down and OS versions that do too. This is pretty much the same. The more that’s built, the cheaper they are. Pioneer DJ and Apple are two companies that like to keep their prices high even after production costs fall, keeping them “premium” and desirable. Denon DJ is doing the right thing by letting that tech trickle down.
Exactly the wrong way for them to do it, IMO. A new version of the flagship players replacing the first edition (or even the expectation of that) and a nearly-equivolent & underpriced all-in-one undercutting them? Awful precedent to set for the line and for their long-term relationship with early adopters, especially when the flagships were advertised as overbuilt and with a long life ahead. The button labeling thing is relatively minor, and can be easily offset with the suggestions I’ve made above. A common code base for the players does not mean every feature and capability on the flagship players and X1800 is going to be on the Prime 4.
I do think we’re a good few years away from a MK2 version though. An SC5000 players life-span would be aboit 5 years if they follow a similar Nexus style product cycle. Investors like to see new shiny toys.
How I’d like to see it is modular. Use the Link port for more goodies. Akai Force, Sound switch, sequencers, anything. It’s future is limited only by the imagination.
They are over-engineered with plenty of room for more to come. There is over two years between the two products. My Galaxy S8+ has the same Samsung OneUI the S10 has. Its features are only limited by it’s hardware. The same with iOS.
The SC5000 needs to set itself apart with new hardware, not by gimping the software.
But who knows? You could be spot on with it and they could introduce new features to the SC5000 but I would feel if the interior is the same it would be a waste of the Prime 4.
We just have to look at the MCX8000. I paid £900 for mine on launch day. The P4 is almost £1500. That’s around £600 difference so is there £600 difference in what it does in the grand scheme of playing two songs to a crowd? Probably not. I can see all the fancy new processing inside the P4 but my £549 Stanton SCS4.DJ also did that. It also did around 90% of what the P4 does for £1k less (4 USB ports with HDD caddy/keyboard search/Linux based). I think the P4 is spot on for the money.
Just a few hundred more for the Prime 4 and it would have been overpriced in my opinion. Modular will always sell to the pro club installs and festival guys, just like the NXS lineup does. Let’s not keep a product artificially high because there is a heavy duty version available in the form of the SC5000. The P4 is £1500 for a reason and they aren’t losing money on each one sold. They have hit the right balance and many will still go for the SC5000 setup as proved in these forums. Motorised, bigger jogs is worth it to most alone.
Who knows? It will be interesting to see which way it all goes.
We are talking common installs lol.
I have never seen a Denon mixer in any club, talk less of Gemini.
I’m glad you are not making decisions for the rest of us.
what do you need locked on your install unit btw? just curious…EQs? Master?
Considering you already said the Prime 4 is not targeted to installations, clubs, and festivals, what reasoning do you have for not promoting the implimation of installation features on flagship models that are deprived from the lower tiers?
Sync disable, on-screen customization and/or Beast Mode, master & booth unity/attentuation setting, sample rate, etc. I’d be fine with the first two not even being available on the lower tiers while key play by pads being on all models.
The current software features of the Prime 4 aren’t worth their exclusivity enough to have them only on the most expensive SC5000 players as they are standard in Serato DJ and iPhone apps. You could get a DDJ-200 with a phone app that does almost all the P4 does.
I would say every feature on the P4 is what I’d expect on a basic mixing program app for my phone and is without a doubt expected from a £1500 bit of kit with a computer inside it. I dare day the P4’s basics are pretty much expected on a £500+ controller with Serato DJ, it’s just now you can leave the laptop at home. That where the extra money spent comes in.
The P4 doesn’t have any fresh trick up it’s sleeve over any other stand alone unit apart from 4 decks and I would say there is no extra features over a mid to top controller with Serato DJ costing £800 less than the P4.
It’s the inbuilt Linux computer that is its trump card and that is the price difference. The features the P4 has should be a given and should only get better over time, just like Djay/Mixvibes Cross for my phone.
Similarly, the SC5000 are amazing value over the XDJ1000 (which also borrows a metric tonne from the NXS2). The SC5000s are super cheap for what they do. £1k for a media player that is better than the cheaper units from the competitor? Win! The X1800 is almost a third cheaper than the equivalent Pioneer product.
If anything… the SC5000/X1800 is too cheap. I think that’s the issue.
I don’t follow. This is about the Prime 4 cannibalizing on the flagship models.
I’m slightly leaning towards the main feature that should be bracketed being the owner lockouts, like sync disable, on screen customization or Beast Mode lock, sample rate lock, master & booth attenuation/unity setting lock, etc. For instance, you’d still get master & booth attenuation on the Prime 4, just not the ability to lock it. That might even mean Beast Mode or on screen customization (not just key play by pads) and most future other features by themselves would exist across the line, just not the ability to lock important ones out from being changed and such.
I don’t feel it is canibalising the bigger units sales as there is always a market for a full size setup. What was the sales on the SC5000/X1800? Do they need to keep last years holiday price that they introduced running permanently? Or is it because they sold well they cost less to make? If so, the P4 will be £998 in a year or two (I doubt that).
The SC5000 are designed with a club in mind. Although they are available to all. The truth is, you just won’t see as many wedding or mobile jocks playing on them as you would EDM DJs on them, this is where a more compact version is needed to replace the aging MCX8000. People who buy the SC5000 over the P4 do it for the bigger jogs, tension, more surface room better network hub connectivity, even the fact they look like a CDJ in the booth. The P4 is still regarded as a controller by some and ideal for weddings. I don’t think the P4 should this be gimped because some users need something smaller and portable.
If anyone chooses the P4 over the SC5000s then the SC5000s wasn’t the right product for them. That’s why I waited on the P4. Size and portability was the issue, even though I nearly did it (I’m so glad I didn’t as I wouldn’t have known what I’d have done with them on a flight back!).
The price gap between the NXS2 and RX2 is much greater than the gap between the SC5000 and the P4 and at the end of the day, they all do the same job. The punters don’t care what gear us DJs have… they want the tunes!
I didn’t say the Prime 4 was going to completely eliminate the market for the flagships, but rather hurt it excessively with the current lack of sufficient feature bracketing and the Prime 4 being so cheap.
Raising the price of the flagship Prime system without also raising the Prime 4 price would only make this situation even worse.
I still don’t get why you’re bringing up the price of the Prime compared to Pioneer in this conversation. Entirely separate discussion that bringing it up here just makes it look like you’re lamenting reduced Pioneer sales.
The price gap between the NXS2 system and RX2 system is also justified by the features, sound quality, and standard installation status of the former over the latter. The continued status of the NXS2 system as the king in the club installation marketplace is proof of that.
The NXS2 setup is king and is unlikely to be de-throned anytime soon. I was mentioning it for comparison ‘like-for-like’ and showing value in Denon DJs products. Most companies have something that is an equivalent to a competitors product and the Prime family are the direct answer to the NXS2/RX2 line so it’s going to get compared. I bring them up as the NXS2 doesn’t have eveeything the RX2 has. Feature-for-feature, the RX2 is like the P4 to the SC5000.
The RX2 has not hurt the sales of NXS2 units in the slightest. They are two different tools for two different jobs, just as the P4 is a different beast to the SC5000. They serve different types of DJ. Anyone who wants full size won’t look at the P4 even if it has the same features and insides as an SC5000 as it’s just not ‘pro’ enough. Club owners won’t put the P4 in the clubs and festivals won’t rock a P4 too. As it’s clear the features are going to be inline with each other going forward I think we will see anyone who is unhappy on their purchase getting a P4 as I suppose they are doubting the value they get from their £3200 purchase of SC5000/X1800 setup over a £1500 similar specced P4. Is there really double the difference in value? Naaah. Denon have to offer the full size. It’s tactical for the competition.
I think the RX2 appeared number 10 in the top 10 selling controllers in 2018. I want to see the P4 in that list for 2019 after all the publicity its had.
And yeah, I do love a good chat. There’s nothing like offering an opposing view to stir good mature conversation.
(Always banging this drum but…) If Denon were to bring out a mind-blowingly ambitious next gen mixer that combined their laptop-free focus with the level of expression available on the Rane72, that could offer an upgrade path to really differentiate the “high end” units from the “affordable” P4.
Then Denon can lean harder on the enhanced flexibility of the individual players. Keep the players a similar price but make the mixer top tier.
1x SC5000M + new battle mixer : A battle setup more compact and expressive than the P4
2 Players + new battle mixer: The ultimate setup
I do hope, as things develops, that the individual players don’t just become compromised versions of the P4, due to the lack of internal I/O etc. I really wanted the motorised platters but have to admit I worry if I made the right choice.
To summarize, are you asking for Denon to INCREASE the price of the P4?
This is definitely a first from a DJ. Never heard that a product that gave you everything you wanted was TOO affordable.
Incredible.
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