Playback hiccups with key lock on

With key lock on I occasionally noticed that the occasional beat would have kind of a muffled transient.

So for house and techno that I play the odd beat will sound as it it’s slightly ducked or muffled - only once in a blue moon.

Was playing back an original last night I just got back from the mastering engineer and the 4the beat of ever bar was definitely muffled but only with key lock on.

Anyone experience this?

Not a deal breaker just curious

Were you at 0% or some other spot, and how far away from zero?

Thanks - this was at zero. In other playing I’ve noticed nothing with more extreme shifts.

I can make a video if that’s helpful

Couple things to think about here: Pioneers are bit perfect at zero pitch, keylock on or off, and only minimally process away from zero pitch with keylock off. On Pioneer, there’s no keylock-specific processing going on at zero pitch at all. While the Hanpin players aren’t bit perfect ever, like Pioneers they also add no additional processing at zero pitch when keylock is on. So on Pioneer and Hanpin, when you’re at zero pitch, it doesn’t matter whether keylock is on or off, though Pioneer has the least amount of processing degradation possible with keylock off. Remember, degradation/distortion is cumulative.

Comparing with keylock off, Primes are already processing & degrading more than even the Hanpins. At the very least, there’s sample rate conversion always going on. Unlike Pioneer and Hanpin, the Primes process the audio additionally at zero pitch when keylock is on. At zero, the difference between keylock on and off on the Primes is pretty subtle, but I think I hear it generally, and it is a measurable difference I can demonstrate. It sounds like you’ve picked up on a particular not-so-subtle quirk. I’ll be on the lookout for it. If I’m at zero pitch and not using key change, though, I usually just turn keylock off. I recommend you do that, too, for now.

There is a slight loss in audio quality while using Keylock on the Primes. Ive compared it to being similar as the audio loss of keylock using Traktor (pre-3). I’ve had other people comment on it as well when using them, saying that the players sound better with keylock off. I am expecting this to improve as they improve the performance of the players over time.

Particularly if you compare something like -11.90% with -2 keys to turning key lock off entirely at the same pitch spot, which shouldn’t sound that much different. I was wondering where the midrange was and why there was a touch of grunge even compared to what the X1800 normally adds even at 96khz. Flicking keylock off quickly and the midrange snapped forward and became coherent, and the grit or grunge suddenly reduced. Doesn’t get rid of the slight smear everything has by default right now, but did noticeably clean up some of the players’ distortion and fix the mids noticeably.

I’ve noticed beat issues most recently quite distinctly. These beat problems do appear to be repeating across the measures in the count. Sometimes a particular beat in a measure is missing some of its transient kick. Other times the initial beat in a measure is just as good as the other beats, but is strangely late. This second variety tends to happen further away from zero pitch. If I turn off key lock, the beat aligns with the mids and highs. If I slightly tweak the pitch fader with key lock on, I can sometimes get the mushy or late transient to improve a little. Weird phenomenon.

Also… I might be imagining it, but sometimes I can swear there’s a slight lag to pitch bending when keylock is on, and sometimes the beats seems to shift quite counterintuitively in time in the opposite direction they ought to for like a split second before the keylock code catches up or something. It’s a lot more subtle than the other stuff, but if anyone else thinks they notice that, please chime in. Sometimes when beatmatching I’m finding it easier to just completely turn keylock off until I’ve got everything lined up first.

I noticed this when scratching while experimenting with key shifting. Try it out, probably the same effect?

You didn’t just post and erase Reticuli. :joy:

I already understand that keylock and scratching don’t mix. Traktor has 2 different settings for keylock because of this.

I was trying to crowd-source narrow down a problem by linking related threads together and made an error :slight_smile: This thread is relevant, but the other one not so much.

You’ve been reviving old topics I see.

Good luck with narrowing down.

1 Like

I will try to help with that. I have some ideas, I will try out during this week.

I find the same problem with key lock. How further from zero the more the beat ‘phased’, i think is the right word. Does anyone know if Denon can fix this? Can they fix this with an update? I find mixing with key lock extremely helpful to mix in key, so it’s really important in my opinion. I’m using the Prime 4 btw.