[NEED MORE INFO] Meter LED Increase After Adjusting Low Frequency to Minimum Position

So while I was doing some practicing I noticed that my left deck seemed a lot louder compared to what my LEDs where showing me…so I set everything to central, LEDs where peaking on -4db…when I turn down my bass EQ the LED actually starts to peak at 0db…is this normal? Surely this cant be correct or am I being really stupid

Any help is GREATLY appreciated

Scott

Edit…this happens on both channels. I have recorded a video if this will help anyone

Hi @ScottyDee, sorry to hear about these issues. I’m moving this post to our Bug Reports for better visibility for our Dev Team.

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I experienced something similar when I was DJ-ing with a (ahum) competing brand’s controller and Mixvibes Cross with two DJ software decks and two “regular” media-players (when I was still carrying around CD’s for backup). While the level meters all indicated nice 0dB signals, there was an audible difference between the two kinds of inputs. Finally figured it out by changing level settings in the software (not much I could do about regular CD players), but it was weird. Curious to see what it was and I will keep an eye out for what the solution is here.

I am assuming you tried it with the same two tracks swapped in the decks? Clearly if you have an old(ish) track in one and a modern track in the other, with just one or two white leds peaking on each, the older one will sound (a lot) quieter. So, might wanna rule that out.

Hey thanks for the help. I tried the same track on both decks to ensure it wasnt what your suggesting. Its more that when all eqs are at central position…the master and channel leds will be at sat -4. But as soon as I reduce the bass a small amount to midway to closed the leds start to peak at about 0db. So even though the sound I’m hearing is changing to be less aggressive, the machine is telling me something different. Now when recording I find it helpful to keep an eye on my master leds to ensure smooth transitions and no massive changes in volume.

I’m not sure if the leds, when all eqs are at central, is correct…or its correct when I adjust the bass and the LEDs change. I know it’s a weird thing to notice but I like to set all my levels prior to the start of a mix so it’s good to know where I am master wise to ensure headroom etc.

Again thanks for the help

Yeah, being able to trust your meters for correct level information is pretty important indeed. Now there is the whole issue on what causes the level meters to react. Some parts in the music are louder than others, hence the “bouncing” nature of the meters with the music and - for example - when vocals kick in.

I could see how turning UP the bass would increase the volume, this is actually expected behavior, but the other way around, not so much.

I just tried to replicate this behavior and I can. I have my EQ settings on default (i.e. not kill and standard frequency changes).

A few notable things seem to happen (all EQ on 12 o’clock, gain just under 1st white led peaking = 0dB):

  • in general I lose one LED when turning the bass fully down (expected, taking out a major part of the musical energy/signal)
  • it SEEMS like the LED below the highest blinks more than the one above it (where you’d expect the top one to be more of the blinking one (this COULD have to do with a feature retaining the highest level just a tad longer to give better visual feedback on peak levels
  • then when the vocals kick in, suddenly the first white LED comes on (blinking with the song). When I then return the bass to 12 0’clock, the white LED no longer lights! So, when increasing the bass the white LED does not come on, while it does with the bass turned down.

It has never bothered me, as I run all my tracks through Platinum Notes anyway, besides I just gain for average 0dB levels when loading a track and after that just keep the occassional eye on the meters to prevent anything odd to be happening.

But I can see how, when you are recording, this could be a bigger issue.

Not sure if this helps any, but there you go.

My three cents as usual.

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Adding an extra cent…

This is indeed an issue that needs fixing. The X1800 had this also, but with the smaller Prime4 meters it stands out more.

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can you look please, if you turned on the limiter on the prime4 … because … it could be that if the bass gets killed the limiter stops working, and in that case the volume gets higher than the sound with bass. but normaly you should hear the difference. I will try that, too , to find out what it is … sounds very strange.

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Limiter is off (of course!).

Looks like the problem is the metering itself. Cannot tell if the audio is really louder. My Prime4 is connected to another mixer and that mixer shows the same spike when cutting out the bass. The RTW meter connected to that other mixer is not showing the spikes, but shows the real drop when cutting the bass.

Later tonight I’ll try to make a video.

Good point. Is it on by default? I don’t remember. If it was I most likely turned it off (like I turn off everything that wants to “automatically” control my volumes, like autogain).

But I will check. I am currently building a new Hackintosh, so the Prime 4 is off the desk for a few hours. Once back on I will check.

Thanks for the tip!

I had the limiter on but as far as im aware the limiter only effects the master out not the channels. If you have the limiter set to 0db the channel LED can still go higher than that, but the master is unable too. Im getting like two extra LED’s on the channel LED when turning the bass slightly down or half way down but only on extra LED on the master, as that is limited to a specific point.

Also im glad someone recognised that visually cueing your tracks up is just as important as hearing it through the speakers. I may need to invest in this Platinum Notes program but i feel like i shouldnt need too. It should work for the price i have paid lol

Guy at the store is in contact with a Denon rep, as soon as i hear anything back ill update on here but thanks for everyones input and im glad its not just my unit…sorry i take that back i wish it was just my unit lol! Hopefully its a simple fix or setting change to reduce this, otherwise its back to the store and im back to square one on what to upgrade too haha!

Thanks everyone

No not to my knowledge.

What ScottyDee is describing looks indeed like a limiter, and he confirmed it, but there is a metering issue.

When playing two identical sinus waves at 0dB, it would increase or decrease when summed together (according to phase between them). However, the metering goes as far as +10dB when summed in a particular phase.

I only noticed it because i was recording, otherwise i wouldn’t have been picking apart my mix to make sure it was good enough to send! I had noticed a difference in levels, but put it down to my ears being old or bad monitor positioning in my studio/front room :sweat_smile:

I just hope they can find out why its doing it, but surely this is a manufacturing issue? can this be fixed with an update do you think?

I really hope so. I really wont be able to experience what the Prime 4 can offer until im happy with how its running

I have a video of the issue if anyone wants to see what im trying to explain. Its as described and it seems im not the only sufferer, such a pain lol

I think it was fixed in firmware, or perhaps less noticeable, on my X1800.

Loudness is a different measurement than peak metering. If the loudness is the same, you’re mostly good. Ears are still a good measure for loudness.

Due to the small amount of metering leds on the Prime4, it is tricky to get an exact reading anyway.

Thing is with serato you had a master record led onscreen, so a quick look to that during transitions would ensure no jumping or unexpected noise etc. It was also a good way to ensure full bright recordings without the need for amplification afterwards.

And i understand that now i have had that taken away, i will need to re learn almost, how to manage with only a master and two to four channels. But in order to do that i need to be sure that what im being fed through these lights is accurate. Ears are all well and good, bit old but still doing the biz haha! I guess its something im going to have to adjust too until its confirmed as an issue. I mean i can still do everything else i would usually do, this is the only thing which is causing me pain

Edit…as well this machine is marketed as great for open format DJ’s. Songs are going to be different levels if your playing rap,rock,house or whatever so i would think this would be an important part of that, just imo obviously others will see it differently i imagine. I guess it all depends on mixing style. During long mixes this isnt as big of an issue, but if im mixing out of a track in 20 to 30 seconds i need to know i have all the tools to make sure it sounds flawless. Again just an opinion

I kinda don’t use the Prime metering really much… :crazy_face::nerd_face:

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Nice! Only been back in the “game” about a year now so this is my first major upgrade, I understand it’s a work in progress almost but still annoying when things dont run at least correctly. Gonna try without the limiter when I get home. Only really tested the limiter to see what it did to recorded shows but it’s not essential, if that fixes the problem then it’s a success for me!

I wouldn’t use the limiter. There is enough headroom to record without issues. I would post process at least the levels afterwards.

Streaming could use the limiter option “On” or when you’re at a specific venue where it’s a “mandatory rule”, but then again you should use something better in those cases.

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LUL … riding starship enterprise ?!

Beam me up, Scotty :slight_smile: So you do OnAir Radio shows - nice to see :+1:

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Problem i have with it is im no sound engineer and i worry about destroying the mix with anything i do post recording. I could do some youtube viewing and probably get what i need from there. You are right you get a ton of headroom when recording which is a good thing!

Haha DJDark…yeah I do a weekly show on an online radio station, had some gigs and things as well, just starting up again so trying to perfect the craft before doing anything totally extravagant :smile:

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Hahaha yeah my kids had the same reaction.

I like the view. Mostly I use it to see what a track does or does not. Bad mp3’s are a good example or flac’s that were a bad mp3 in the past…

Radio was also a hobby next to mixing.

Due to copyright I don’t stream publicly, so it’s only for my own use. In 2004 I got real sick and was stuck at home for a period of time. I found myself playing a small selection of music every time. So eventually I put all my good music in a radio play-out system playing at random, but bound by predefined rules. I still use this when we have party or other celebrations. Made more streams with different themes like Christmas or easy listening songs.

Going a bit off topic here hijacking this topic… sorry.