Bass dilemma

Engine DJ Hardware Mixers
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I HIGHLY doubt the crossovers’ filter type or order is being changed depending on the frequencies you choose. Most isolators use Linkwitz-Riley 4th-order 24dB/octave filters that sums pretty evenly (at least with uniform noise) and have phase-alignment at the joined corner frequencies during summing. The phase alignment at the corner frequencies is what contributes to the even volume with the summing across the spectrum, though this type of filter overall has more phase distortion than some other types.

The Rane MP2015 uses slightly different filters than this on its non-bypassable channel isolators and thus stands apart as a result in that regard from other digital mixers, but I’ve never seen a digital mixer change the filters with the frequency selection.

You might want to try DJing with just the EQ mode for a while and see how it sounds to you for comparison, and then later try with the isolator mode again but with one or more (better yet, all) knobs tweaked slightly. So instead of leaving all the knobs at 12 o’clock as their center, have them all at like 11 o’clock as the center. Then try manipulating the tonal balance from that point during your transitions and see if you find anything changes in what you hear.

22

i tried that already, same problem.

let me explain it this way: in a daw of your choice, play a track with a fat kick, assign an eq and increase at 150hz. it starts to hammer. if you decrease at 150hz it gets muddy. and the latter is what i get if i turn the bass to the left with the crossover set to something higher than 100hz.

23

You tried DJing with EQ mode for a while or you tried iso with all the knobs tweaked slightly to the left?

24

it makes no difference. the problem i described is not affected by that.

25

If you use iso mode with all the knobs tweaked to the left a touch, the group delay phase distortion characteristics will change only when you change the crossover frequency in the settings. At a given crossover setting, the phase distortion will remain constant regardless of the band’s volume controlled by the pot in iso mode. So if you tweak the knobs all a bit in iso mode and hear this ‘problem’ only when changing the crossover band in the Utility, then you’re hearing the phase distortion interact with your PA in your basement and/or your room, in which case I guess either stick with 100hz on the X1800, move your speakers, or adjust your PA’s own crossover to the sub(s)… as all that will have its own phase distortions and interact with each other.

26

no, as mentioned this doesn’t affect the problem. it’s always like that.

27

Then it seems to me you’re not hearing the differences in phase distortion between the different crossover frequencies, rather you appear to be experiencing the same issue with the left-wise rotation curve on the bass knob that I did in that other thread and you’re partly mitigating this lack of finesse to the left of the 12 o’clock using 100hz instead of higher settings, but then you’re having to deal with too much lower mids even when the bass fully cut.

28

exactly the problem i described in my first post.

anyway i played around with a parametric eq trying to match the issue and was able to identify the problem:

it seems the x1800’s low shelf curve is simply too flat. and because of that decreasing too much too far ahead.

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The low frequency band on an isolator is not a shelf EQ, though, rather it’s a simple filter with the pot adjusting the entire volume of the audio running through that filter. The only unique things about the X1800’s isolators are 1) the bypass mode when the channel’s tone knobs are all centered and 2) that slightly clunky curve just to the left of the bass knob’s center that abruptly cuts too much bass even with a slight tweak.

How much experience do you have using actual isolators? I don’t mean just normal EQs with an artificial cut or mute past a certain point. It’s possible you’ve previously used certain parametric-style EQs that you prefer, you just haven’t taken a liking to isolators now that you’ve encountered a real one on the X1800, and also you don’t like the X1800’s own EQ mode.

There’s really not much InMusic can do to change the iso’s filters that won’t do weird stuff to the corner frequency summing or something else. I can 100% confirm based on test signals that the X1800 iso mode (assuming you’re not in bypass) is indeed a real iso model that resembles Mackies, Ranes, Xone DBs, and standalone analog rack units.

You might want to put in a feature request to have adjustable EQ mode parameters or have the current frequencies under Utility somehow affect the EQ mode, too. Then you could at least make EQ mode closer to what you want. Who knows, maybe besides frequency they’d even throw in a Q control, too. Q would be useless on the iso mode, but certainly it’d give you full control of the EQ mode bands.

30

i couldn’t tell because i didn’t care about the difference :stuck_out_tongue:

the point is, as mentioned in my first post as well, that for example traktor’s built in eq doesn’t have this problem but still has a cut. whether that’s an “official” isolator or some cheap cheat i don’t care as long as it doesn’t cause this problem.

31

For sure the NUO, P600, P800, and Xone EQ models are not isolators. If a version of Traktor that you have lists an actual ISO in its eq settings you can try using some time, that might give you a comparison to what I’m talking about. I suppose that would be a surefire way of convincing you if indeed you prefer specific types of EQs that aren’t isos, in which case the X1800 is going to be a little lacking to you for some time. If you find which exact Traktor setting(s) you like, maybe you could point InMusic in that direction. Even if they don’t add adjustments to the X1800 EQ parameters, maybe they could permanently change them a little that, as you say, better preserves bass punch when cutting the lows a little, like narrow a notch somewhere or adjust the bass shelving.

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32

that nails it! :+1: i just don’t seem to be the isolator type so to speak.

so the follow up question is, how can i spot an iso? i.e. if i’m looking through mixer specs. to make sure i don’t run into the same problem again.

or alternatively, do you know which of the current popular mixers have isos?

33

It will say it’s an iso or isolator, and or simply tell you its crossover bands are like 24/dB per octave (or close to it).

Analog Xones are not isos on the channels. The new Pioneer V10 is not an isolator. Pioneer DJM-900 are selectable EQ and iso modes. Rane MP2014 & MP2015 and Mackie D2 & D4 are strictly isolators. I actually wish InMusic would add either the X1800’s iso bypass to those Rane digital rotaries and/or give us an option for channel EQ mode under its Utility since they already have a master isolator. The P in those Traktor EQ modes, by the way, stands for Pioneer. NUO was a line from Ecler.

I will say, though, that the current X1800 EQ mode seems to deform test waveforms in very predictable ways, and goes from doing nothing to the signal when centered to smoothly and gradually increasing manipulation of the signal. So you might want to spend a little more time with the X1800’s EQ mode, too, just to give it a little more chance. It might surprise you.

34

i know :slight_smile:

well, the reason why i got an x1800 are the adjustable crossovers. and they only work in iso mode so using eq mode would kinda defeat the purpose. also as i tried out, iso at 250hz crossover is still better bass wise than eq mode so really no gain (pun intended) there.

don’t get me wrong, i like it. especially with the low crossover at 100hz it really blasts away. but as mentioned that’s a bit cumbersome for transitions hence i called it catch-22 in my first post.

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35

LOL - what a sight a room full of spectrum analysers will be!

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37

Right, yeah, I think we talked about that before that you or someone else wanted Denon for the adjustable crossovers that the Pioneers lacked. By the way, the X1700 is adjustable but iso-only, so that’s looking like the same situation. The DB4 does not do adjustable, but does let you chose between EQ, iso, and filter modes. I think the digital Eclers may have had adjustable, the Evo line, but no idea if they’re EQ or iso. Numark PPD 9000 has a few well-varied EQ choices for its tone controls, and I don’t think any of them are isos. The Tascam X-9 has fully adjustable parametric EQ with dual-ring knobs, but they’re a bit laggy – cool mixer, but also not full true digital inputs. If you like any of the specific EQ modes in Traktor more than the others, you might want to get one of those physical mixers that the mode’s based on.

When I look at the X1800’s EQ mode on a scope with test waveforms passing through it, turning those knobs does exactly what I’ve come to expect from good EQs. All centered, it just passes the signal unaffected. A square waveform tilts one way with one tone knob, the other way with another knob very gradually and predictably. All exactly as it should. Maybe I should test it again and pay particular attention to the bass control’s affect on test signals, and also try to see what it does to pink noise. I don’t think I tried the latter. As I said before, it’s possible the EQ mode’s bass EQ parameters are different than what you’re used to, but I don’t know what they currently are, actually, except that it is a real EQ mode as opposed to an iso, it’s not a full cut, it behaves predictably, and at center it properly just passes the signal.

Where are you usually running your tone knobs at when a track is just playing out on the X1800 all by its lonesome 1) when in iso mode, and 2) when in EQ mode?

In EQ mode, you should be all centered when a track is just playing on its own unless a specific track really seems imbalanced compared to your other tracks, rather than playing every track with boosted or cut bass. If you find you’ve got every track tweaked all the time, adjust your PA system. As I previously stated, in iso mode it’s completely off and transparent when a channel’s knobs are all centered and switches the 3-way crossover network on when any of them on that channel are out of center.

I still think you just not liking isos as much as parametric EQs and you not liking the X1800’s EQ mode’s current bass parameters is the best working theory right now.

Nonetheless, I’m also curious if perhaps the higher crossover points on the iso modes and the firmware’s chosen parameters on EQ mode are just not a good fit for your PA system and/or the basement it’s in. That still might be a possibility. Isos (when they’re on) cause specific phase distortion depending on the crossover frequency that will interact with the distortion of the PA’s crossover and the room, resulting in shifts in frequencies, transient precision, and volume. The EQ mode will gradually add similar distortion, but only as you apply EQ away from center.

Does your PA system cross the tops as well or are you just low-passing for the subs without a high-pass for the tops?

What is the crossover point on your PA system?

Have you tried mixing in headphones and see if you hear that much difference in your mixing results with EQ vs iso and the various iso crossover points compared to what you hear on the basement PA system? Obviously if you still think you hear the same thing in headphone mixing, then our working theory remains valid. If you’re not hearing the issue as much in headphones, your system/room PA situation could be a factor.

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38

yeah that was me. and as you know it’s not only the pioneers but pretty much all others don’t have that either.

it depends on each track of course. but at around 10 o’clock i really start to hear the problem at hand. in eq mode even sooner.

at least for the bass that’s unlikely because all tracks are different. some might just be right at 12 o’clock but that’s a minority. i also avoid going into the plus range on digital devices in general so i rather stay a little on the left by default. in fact with the x1800 i have to adjust the eqs much more compared to my analog mixers.

no doubt as i confirmed already.

yep, it’s the same if i just use headphones. the other gear doesn’t affect this issue. it depends on the x1800.

39

You might want to adjust your basement PA so that more tracks are at or close to 12 o’clock if you plan on trying to use the EQ mode more. If you’re using a digital mixer, it usually makes little difference whether you’re cutting or boosting. Well, actually on the old pre-NXS2 digital Pioneers there’s a minor advantage to using boost if you’re using analog inputs because of the way the metering works on them and how the tone knobs affect the signal going into the AD converters, but that’s another subject.

If you’re interested in accuracy, when using EQs (not isos) on both analog or digital mixers, you should be trying to use the fewest number of tone knobs at a time and the closest to center they can remain that will get the results you want. If on Traktor you found you were mostly using the EQs (not isos) with knobs usually tweaked from center, then what you may actually like the sound of was that EQ’s phase distortion.

Ignoring the X1800’s iso bypass for a moment, if you’re using isos and all other things being equal, it makes little difference how many knobs you use or whether they’re all up, all down, or whatever, since each band’s knob just acts as its own trim-gain pot for the duplicated/split audio run through that set of filters – the only difference in each band is obviously the filters that the duplicated/split audio for each band is being subjected to. This is especially the case on all true, full digital mixers other than the old Pioneer digital pre-NXS2 model range (Edit: I rephrased this), or even on those mixers if you’re using digital inputs.

Again, the amount of phase distortion is constant when an iso is activated for a given set of crossover points, regardless of knob positions. Obviously on an analog mixer if you’re boosting or cutting the hell out of one gain stage unnecessarily and then doing the opposite on another gain stage further down the path on the mixer, then you’re actually worsening noise in the signal path. However, if you leave an analog mixer’s dedicated trim-gain knobs at the top at their unity detent (if they have one), you can hypothetically just use the isos and never even touch the trim-gain knobs at the top and there’s no adverse consequences.

40

i don’t. as mentioned i got the x1800 for the adjustable crossovers so eq mode makes no sense. and as mentioned as well, eq mode is even worse as iso at 250hz bass wise so no point either.

as mentioned, this is not a general sound taste matter but specifically the issue we identified already.

hmm, so the pioneers are not fully digital?