Ability to Shrink/Expand Beat Grids

Guess we’ll have to write this anyway.

  • What is the feature or ability you would like to have?

Beatgrid editing / beatgrid correction on the fly.

  • How will this feature help you and others?

It will help approx 99% of us, since Engine Prime still dont write the correct BPM of tracks in many occasions.

  • Is this feature available in an existing product? If so, what product?

It is possible on the MCX8000 hooked up to Serato and VDJ.

  • Does a workaround currently exist?

Enter the correct BPM in Engine Prime manually

  • How often would you use this feature?

Every single time I play.

  • Is there any additional information you’d like to add?

No

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Julianus - please read the post before you comment. Thats not what I’m saying.

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Where did you get the 99% from ?

Just look at all of the comments across the forum where people are asking for the flexible beatgrid. But I can adjust it to 98% if that makes you happier.

It’s a worthwhile request. Once the repeat requests from the same forum members are just counted as 1 request, it’s more around the 60% figure. But even at 60% of users wanting it, its worth having. I’ll vote for it.

Btw this request area is going to get really messy and it’s votes for features really badly diluted if we keep duplicating the same requests as others without checking whether the request has already been asked for, and voting for the original one. Three same requests, each getting 5 votes isn’t giving as good an indication as one request getting 15 votes

Getting BPM right 99+% of the time, doesn’t sound like a feature. It sounds like a reasonable quality request.

Especially for modern, electronic music, it shouldn’t be too hard. Point in case that most other DJ software has a way better track record regarding this capability.

Flexible beatgridding is slightly more challenging, but here too there are competitors that do a great(er) job at it.

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I agree… They should have made it as a poll feature instead, listing all the feature request they have recieved so far, and given members X votes each, to place on the listed features.

To be concrete, by “beatgrid editing on the fly” I am assuming that you are referring to the ability to expand, shrink, and move the beatgrid directly from the players (and not only double, halve, and move)… am I right?

I think this is feature request is a MUST that would give the players a great boost in user experience.

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You are absolutely correct. ‘Shrink/ expand and move’ it is :blush:

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Personally, when I am on a gig, I don’t have time or rather don’t want to spend time on fixing beatgrids on the fly. Just switch to manual beatmatching and be done with it.

That said, this hooks into the (wall of text, I know, sorry) post I just wrote on knowing your collection intimately.

The question that pops up for me is, “how is it possible a track with an incorrect beatgrid made it into my collection in the first place?”. Every single track in my collection needs to be 100% prepped properly before being used in a live gig. Except requests, but beatgrid worries for those don’t exist, imho.

I understand that moving tracks from other platforms to EP might cause re-analyzing of beatgrids with unintended results as beatgrids being off.

We are so spoiled that something imposible only a few years ago, taking a collection from platform xand playing it on platform y, now in’t just possible but we expect it to be picture-perfect.

Years ago moving from one DJ software to another was a serious undertaking, because you knew you had to rework EVERYTHING, from cues and loops to beatgrids. I went Traktor to Mixvibes Cross once. Took me 2 months to check every track brought over into Cross, before I had the confidence everything was in order and decided to play live with it.

With today’s tools like the ATGR suite, it would have taken me no time at all to get all the stuff over. Still I would have done the same track for track status check I would have done otherwise before going live. With all the info already there and a lot of it being correct, that might have taken me a week instead of months, but still.

If you say you have to many tracks to check them all, my reply would be that te number of tracks in your collection is to big.

Your collection is your DJ working capital. It’s the one thing that separates you from your colleagues. A relatively small, well-curated collection defines who you are as a DJ. The most important skill of a DJ imho is knowing what track must come next, not from the near infinite music out there, but from your hand-picked collection.

Clearly tools should work as intended. But you can’t blame the manufacturers and software developers for things not being right in your collection.

Play out only with tracks you know you’ve prepped and vetted in advance. Don’t depend on the tools to do that work for you or to offer live fixability. When it does fine, but the final responsibility lies with you, the DJ.

Just my 3 cents as usual. (Can anyone tell I’m passionate about the subject? :stuck_out_tongue:)

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It takes 2 or 3 seconds to adjust BPM on the fly using buttons on the controller.

I do it on the live song or cued track.

It’s still library management going by the know your library mantra.

i.e the track is already mixed in or a candidate in the prepare list.

  • Notice bpm or beatgrid is off prior to playing, hold a combination of buttons to shrink, expand, slide, set downbeat or multiple downbeat if its non quantized, lock track.

  • If it’s the live track playing that need TLC, I instant double the track to a free deck and do the adjustment on the double.

It’s a feature that’s already available and smartly implemented in Serato DJ. It’s on Denons own serato controller.

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The best way would be like it is on the MCX8000 with Serato. Sooo fast and easy.

After you have entered the Edit mode, hold SHIFT and rotate the jogwheel… Left to Shrink the grid, and Right to expand, until the markers match the peaks.

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This was the best way. I used it often on the MCX8000.

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I recall Denon staff saying “they are working to improve the bpm algorithm” or something like that.

I dont know anything about programming or coding but I know for sure that no single algorithm can be perfect.

I read some academic papers on it just out of curiosity and I will post some links here.

Whilst there is no harm in improving the algorithm, the most important thing to me is a way to easily correct the wrongly calculated BPM.

All software I have tested/tried have that shrinking/expanding beatgrid spacing buttons for this sole purpose.

And they have fine and coarse movement buttons…there is no point implementing it if its gonna be moving in .001 bpm per click.

hoerschlaeger_etal_smc_2015.pdf (283.1 KB) beat-detector.pdf (353.7 KB)

The other question is

Will the “advanced beatgrid/bpm correction” options be available on the players directly?

It will be nice to know what we are waiting for…lol.

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This is a very good feature that we are still missing. As the deck already can analyze the track and give us some beatgrid. The grid is many times not perfect, but we still miss the essential tool - grid stretch/squeeze. This could be perfect to implement in a same way we have the grid movement on the deck - jog wheel. Just when in the grid edit mode - hold shift and turn the jog wheel to stretch/sqeeze - this should be made like that and that would be very intuitive.

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Updating title to better fit topic description.

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Yes, please add this feature!

It would allow us customize the beatgrid to help with those disco and classic rock tracks where the drummer is not always quantized to all the beats across the entire track. Then we can choose where to set the grid timing based on our own preferences.

Add “On the fly” tapping along with quick shrink and expand while the track is playing, even in loop mode too.

The only thing that interests me is getting away from the Prime Software as much as possible, an example I do many genre but also 80’s 90,s soul funk etc and as most is from vinyl and seem to drift way out so its near on impossible to auto Grid and often difficult manually, so a more advanced beat grid method, more elastic like or similar, what ever is doable/usable, and obviously it would be needed for SC5000/m and Software, I just want it old school like and hands on instead of having to use software, so the more I can get away from the software the better, obviously I would still use the software for the initial BPM scan and naming loops and cues, but it would be extremely nice to not keep having to go back to the software when I do come across these tricky Songs, I use a lot of this old soul funk etc collection to loop over house music being my main example, I know what you are saying and could agree on your method but I guess their are various ways in which people like to work, and having the choice can only be a good thing, I seen the vision in Denons new digital dj players and seeing/hoping that one day I would not have to use the laptop or pc, and if at all only for quick analysis of my collections/crates, for me this is the way I would prefer, getting back to a more organic way and evolution from the turntable.

:smile::smile:

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I’d rather name the loops and cues on the hardware, using the players on-screen qwerty keyboard, with occasional naming of those things on software in Engine Prime. Might as well make the players even more standalone

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Hope this is still in the works

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