16kHz LPF?

Hi All

I am considering a Prime setup, having been a fan of Denon for years (ever since I saw an 1800F) and currently own a pair of SC2900.

I just have one concern and that is that I’ve seen mentioned that there is a permanent 16kHz Low Pass Filter to make the time-stretching work. The comments I read mentioning this were quite old, so I was just wondering if this is still present or has been changed? Or if the comments I’ve read were mistaken? If someone could give me details of this, that would be great. Ta

That high end roll off wasn’t all that noticeable to anyone other than the “00.000001” geek brigade.

Indeed, the 5000 had been out a year before anyone on the forums even mentioned it.

A recent firmware update removed the high end roll off, thereby making the higher frequencies even more audible. Some of the rent-a-gob geeks have been on the forum a lot less since that day.

That same firmware update also gave us on-player buildable and editable playlists, powerful harmonic key adjusting on songs and a whole load of more features. Also, the hidden WiFi streaming features of the units, allowing DJs to pull new or rare songs which they don’t alteady own, down from streaming services straight onto the decks, has been activated as a public beta test too.

Buying a Prime has always been a worthwhile move, but even more so now.

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Considering multiple people noticed it before even having done actual spectrum tests that later confirmed their suspicions, I think that’s a stretch to say hardly anyone noticed it or to imply it was insignificant. It’s also incorrect to say it is completely gone. There is still some measurable low-pass filtering, but it is gentler and also begins higher up than previously. It occurs even with keylock off, though it is slightly more with keylock on. The highs also now extend out further on files of higher sampling frequency than before (e.g. 96khz vs 44.1khz).

I suspect it has more to do with the base audio processing on the Prime playback gear. As I have said repeatedly, the base audio processing had/has larger issues than the roll-off and they already improved the roll-off somewhat as a result of people focusing on that in the short-term. Since it’s reasonable to assume the roll-off is likely a symptom of the processing techniques currently used, it was neither likely any quick, tiny fix would completely remove it nor resolve the other processing issues. The roll-off now is subtle enough, in particular, that if you have issues with the Prime sound currently I doubt the roll-off is most of what you’re hearing anymore.

I assume the base audio processing will be improved on Prime once they iron out some more immediate issues like those on the newly-released and hot-selling Prime 4, Engine Prime software that people keep complaining about (I don’t use it much), and then things like the link and jog on the SC5000 that have some quirks still. I believe the hardware is fully capable of better audio processing and that firmware updates can resolve this. InMusic has also publically stated they have increased company resources on Prime and are committed to it.

If you want immediate bit-perfect playback from the digital out with keylock off, then Pioneer DJ is the only company that does that right now. If you’re willing to look past that and some of Prime’s other quirks, I think we are likely to see quite a bit of improvements and features if we’re patient and stick with it. Certainly you’re not going to see that sort of receptivity to user requests from Pioneer who scoff at people bringing up their jog bend deadzone or useless pitch resolution on Wide that Prime already demolishes.

If you care about this issue, please heart this request linked here. You can also see more links to prior threads on the topic that go into more detail. Thanks for your time.

https://denondjforum.com/t/improve-audio-processing-quality/

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Thanks for the details. It’s good to see that things can be improved on this front and that Denon is listening. I appreciate that everything is a compromise - cost, portability and functions are all things that have to taken into account. If it was up to me, I’d be playing purchased CD’s through a Formula Sound FF6.2, but that isn’t going to happen anytime soon.

I’ve got a nice system, but every step in the chain will have an effect on the sound and if the base sound coming out of the players isn’t as good as it possibly can be, then it doesn’t matter how nice the mixer, LMS, amps and speakers after it are.

Oh and geeks got a man on the moon, built the channel tunnel and made the very players we’re talking about possible. It’ll be geeks that cure cancer.

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Wont you please be kind and stop those personal attacks on people and their opinions?

It is perfectly fair that you are super happy with everything Denon says and does, but other people also have the right to express their opinions, without being told they are wrong, dumb, geeks or whatever immediately, to draw the focus away from what is really the matter . Because then people are not heard or seen.

But you don’t see anyone but you in here, sitting and calling people for things. I dont get it.

Let Denon be the judge of what’s important, but let people come up with their opinions. Then Denon will definitely sort in the input they get.

So please respect the opinions of other people. Even if they don’t match yours.

In fact, there are cases where 0.000001% can mean all or nothing. And if it matters to some - so be it.

And now you might be sitting there wanting to comment on something like I’m running a propaganda trip against Denon - I don’t.

I’m also happy for my players, I just think there are things that should be fixed a long time ago. And if you do not pay attention to these things, then it may take even longer before something happens. Not that mine is more important than the wishes of others, but then they must also open their mouths.

Have a great day.

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It’s odd. You’re making a personal attack on him, incorrectly, about him making a personal attack

It’s not a personal attack if it wasn’t personal. No name was mentioned inside his comments so it wasn’t personal or aimed at a personal individual. Your comments however were replying to him specifically and therefore personally, citing him and him alone. You’re more guilty of a personal attack, when he wasn’t. His only offence was having a different opinion than yours.

It seems quite balanced and maybe that is the good thing that some people here stick together on attacking denon or trying to make opinion seem like fact, then other people stick together in providing an equal strength correction of such posts.

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I should have guessed who would be the next one to comment.

Yes I direct my comment directly to him as he very often makes name calling immediately if someone disagrees with him or has a different opinion. And there is no different in this thread. It’s low!

So no, I’m not commenting on him being of any other opinion, I’m commenting on his need to call other names!

I think you should read what I am actually writing: "It’s perfectly fair that you are super happy with everything Denon says and does, but other people also have the right to express their opinions, without being told they are wrong, dumb, geeks or whatever immediately, to draw the focus away from what is really the matter "

So let’s stay focused on what the thread is about.

Have a nice day.

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Yes, I finally belong to a group!!:metal:t2::sunglasses:

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I got called a geek once just for wanting to set gain structure properly!

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The measured non-linear harmonic and intermodulation distortion produced by the current playback processing tends to be less noticeable on music that sounds nicely spread out and with a good sense of space and dynamics. With dynamic minimal techno, world music, or old funk it’s not as objectionable as, say, with tech trance, shoegazer, industrial, or commercial EDM where it’s pretty noticeable back-to-back with Pioneer gear.

Rather than make this super complicated with some kind of flow chart…

If you 1) play exclusively more dynamic, sparse music, 2) through an analog mixer, 3) and always keep keylock on without intentionally moving back to zero pitch during the track, I think there is a low likelihood you would be dissatisfied by the Prime player sound even as it currently is prior to assumed future firmware improvements.

If you 1) play more dynamically-compressed, dense music or 2) through a hyper-revealing top digital mixer or 3) at least occasionally turn keylock off or often return to zero pitch with it on, then there’s a chance Prime’s sound would be a letdown… especially if you have Pioneer to compare it to.

If you’re in the latter camp, I’d recommend waiting to jump on Prime until updates resolve the sound issues.

If you’re somewhere in between those two camps, it’s hard to say how you’ll feel about it. In that case, you might want to extensively demo first.

Though it would be a smart benchmark to use and goal for InMusic, I don’t think bit-perfect is even necessarily what Prime has to be able to achieve at zero pitch, as VDJ, Deckadance, and Traktor seem to have no issues with decent base audio processing and good key correction and none of them are ever bit-perfect.

Pioneer’s trouble-free & rapid link (with memory of where you were), their consistent functioning (history and next track always work), and their minimalist audio processing are all laudable and unmatched anywhere in the industry right now. And, well, Pioneer also haven’t been dropping prices on their flagships and undermining early adopters with quite-as-grossly-cannibalizing products like InMusic has, either, which might damage Prime’s long-term cred in that regard, too. To be unbiased I need to give Pioneer props on all this when it’s due.

Thanks for the detailed reply; I appreciate it. The more I think about it, the more I’m quite tempted to stick with my SC2900’s until they die completely and treat myself to the FF6.2

Hi @djgorey, as stated above, this issue has been resolved with the last update. Great thing Denon listened to the users. The players are not bit-perfect, but considering what they can do on the time stretching front, they’re good enough for me :slight_smile: They sound warm and transparent. Since you mentioned it, I do use them with the FF6.2 :wink:

As I said, that’s not quite correct. My point was that the other sound problems are worse than the roll off and particularly even more so now that the roll off has been reduced, so if people have a problem with the sound it’s unlikely the roll-off is most of the alteration they’re hearing. That doesn’t mean there isn’t roll off, just that the nonlinear harmonics and IMD is substantially more coloring than the slight roll off remaining. And as I said in the post someone flagged, VDJ, Traktor, and Deckadance aren’t bit perfect, either, but their sound, unfortunately, currently puts Prime to shame.

http://forum.djtechtools.com/showthread.php?t=93197&page=10&p=765578&viewfull=1#post765578

Well, that’s obviously an option. You do have ethernet track offload available with them which you don’t still on Prime. The old Denon link was even worse than Prime’s, though, and many other things Prime improves on or adds. SC2900 has, what, 1% pitch increments on 100% range? That’s half Pioneer’s already bad res on Wide. I only messed with the SC3900 a little and own the 5500s, but don’t believe I’ve ever touched the SC2900. I assume it has some weird stuff with the jogs going on as the 5500, SC5000, and SC5000M exhibit.

What kind of mixer you using right now? I’m a big fan of top digital stuff and the only analog mixers I still own (that aren’t throw away cheapos) are full DCA and VCA designs. I think with the SC2900 you’re still going to get better sound from a digital mixer with them. When Prime’s sound gets improved, high-end analog isn’t going to benefit as much as revealing high-end digital will with them… including the somewhat dry, constrained-sounding X1800 (that’s still lagging the old X1700 processing) that I hope also gets a sound-related firmware update.

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I’ve got an Ecler Nuo4.0 at the moment so the Formula Sound would be a decent upgrade. I had an FSM-600 previously which I loved.

It’s going into an Ohm TRS PA.

Same here. If my Nikes squeak when I walk but only bats and dogs can hear it, then people are gonna look at me like I’m saying the world is flat if I pull other more important conversations around to “hey! Don’t forget about my shoes” which is what seems like is happening here.

Denon improved the high end roll, 99% of everyone said thanks and that they could hear it’s better than before and people don’t wave sound analyse reports at me when they’re dancing to my tunes so that’s as good as it needs.

I don’t feel like I should stick my hand up in every post and tell denon to make great sounding audio sound even greater by postponing their work on beatgrid improvements, postponing bpm detection improvements, postponing Engine Prime improvement, postponing on-screen player editing of stars and loop names. If I did, I’d probably be shot at!

About the other point. I like the community flagging but how many in the community have to flag something to make it temporary hide? At the moment it looks like it’s not enough. So denon should just raise the number of different users who have to separately flag the same post to make it disappear. If it needs 10 people of the community at the moment to flag a post for it to hide, then that’s 10 people who feel the post was bad. You shouldn’t silence 10 people. But if then 11 people say that a post shouldn’t have been hidden then maybe the best action is to raise the flag count from 10 to 20 people flagging something to hide it.

But backing onto the topic? Denon you’ve made the audio sound great now, it might be possible to get it 0.00??? % better BUT don’t worry about that for a second by postponing the important stuff. We want beatgrids and better Bpms, not a flat earth to keep the Spectrum analysers happy

It seems to be a kind of a toss up between sound quality vs updating features.

It seems like more people want better efficiency from their gear first though.

But here’s something to consider also. If you are playing a gig with another dj say with pioneer gear and you are playing with denon gear, would you want you sound quality to be at least on par with each other?

It also seems very easy to false flag posts here.

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Great point, not relevant to the little gigs I do, but in a Function One, if you ever want to “change the rider” it has to be AT LEAST as good as Pioneers.

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Well, as we already tested with my friend on Adamson and AD systems stage audio, there is already a difference in sound that is coming from both setups with a big benefit for Denon. Same settings on both mixers, same track, sounds way better on Prime setup.

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Which basically takes this to a perfect conclusion. Let your ears and your dancers or listeners ears be the judge. Leave the machines to vend chilled soda and 3musketters bars, not to spectrum analyse all the fun and professionalism out of the craft

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