BPM times in engine prime


#1

Man how is Engine coming up with some of these times?! I’m okay with having to cut the BPMs in half or add half on the fly but some of these times are just all of the place. Like should be 100 but it’s 136. Am I missing some setting in engine to optimize this stuff because it’s rearing its head a lot. I’ve already had to reanylize everything with a different bmp range to fix a ton of stuff but still seem to be struggling on this. Any help would be appreciated. Serato definitely has this stuff down better. Rekordbox also struggled in this department.

Thanks!

P.S. If there’s a way I can fix these I’m possibly just missing it?


#2

Hello, I have the same concern, I have a title before with rekordbox I was 130 BPM and now with engine premium I am at 173 BPM. While other titles that are at 130 BPM do not move.


#3

Yeah the BPM analyses engine leaves a lot to be desired.


#4

Hello! Are you on the latest firmware update?


#5

Hello, Yes, of course, version 1.2.2


#6

Okay, I am passing this onto Technical Support as a matter of urgency.


#7

Hello Chloe and @AIRVince (whom many reported to have being involved with Torq)

No single DJ software is 100% right in correctly calculating BPM during analyses, DJs all know & accept that.

The issue i have is that there no easy way to make corrections to any wrongly computed BPM other than to tap in the Engine Prime software or to manually type it in. On the players there is no tap. Manually typing it requires me to know the BPM value, tapping is useful for a rough BPM estimate.

I have used Serato DJ for years and all my BPMs are correct using a combination of Seratos autoanalysis and the tracks that remain wrong are easily adjusted by either contracting the beat grid or expanding it.

Engine Prime only allows us to half or double the BPM when preparing tracks e.g. if a hip hop track of 65bpm in detected as 130bpm or vice versa.

I become stuck in situations where e.g. a 120bpm song is wrongly detected as 97bpm. How does one correct that.

Engine Prime needs to allow users to manually expand or contract the beat grid markers…in every other software if you expand the beat grid spacing the BPM decreases and if one reduces the space between markers the BPM increases.

Following that step I will then lock the tracks to prevent reanalyses.

This is what will be helpful to me. I’m an open format DJ.

It will be immense if it can also be done on the players as well. It takes me less than 15secs to correct BPMs. Most times I do it on the fly mid gig for that matter.

Beat Tap on the Denon SC5K Primes may also be helpful for users who like tapping.

A combination of tapping and beat grid edit is the Eldorado in addition to improving the auto analyses engine.

With this recent price drop many hesitant users will surely be purchasing units. The SC5000M will definitely woo open format/urban DJs.

I can predict that in the next couple of days, this forum will be littered with guys frustrated by the BPM Beat Grid analyses engine .

We need the grid/BPM to be tight so the other important features such as sync, autoloop, quantise, beat slicer, beat jump, FX etc can work correctly

The beat grid is also important for Soundswitch as well.

Please pass the message as it is to your fabulous developers.

It’s Prime Time.


#8

BPM doubling up or halving is relatively obvious and easy to sort, it is the ones where it adds or takes a third off the bpm that I find strange and ones where the bpm is like 1or 2 bpm out more frustrating. But TBH Rekordbox is not perfect at it either and sometimes its the tune not being100% the same bpm all the way through, but that's rare. I have corrected perhaps 20% of the tunes it analyses. The original engine for the sc2900/sc3900 was always getting bpms wrong, I would say Prime is an improvement for sure, I think serato have it worked out the best. Although I don’t have pioneers I use Rekordbox and serato to check when prime fails to get the correct bpm,even they sometimes can not get it 100%


#9

As everyone has said. Yeah it’s the stuff that’s not 50% one way or the other that’s the problem. And thanks for passing on Chloe!


#10

I did a comparison between the DJ softwares I own not long ago.

Traktor came out on top with 99% accuracy. It even got bpm value correct for tracks that the other softwares calculate as double time.

70 was 70 & not 140. 130 was 130 & not 65.

I didn’t have to do anything extra such as defining the a narrow BPM range which I often have to do in Serato to assist with low bpm tracks.

Images below show the extra controls that will be helpful to correct BPMs and Grids

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20181108_185821

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Here is the link to the comparison I did


#11

Hi @ mufasa… I have never tried trakor to assist in bpm calculation when struggling with engine but will do…thanks


#12

I have had my sc3900s about 4-5years and never bothered with sync as more often then not it was well out in engine 1.5, previous to that I have always been analogue with 1210s mixing only by ear with the assist of a redsound sampler that calculated bpm also,but to be honest the prime is a lot better so sync on the 5000s is usable a lot more than 3900s.so I could live without sync as I never trusted it before buying these or using serato, as I never went pioneer I can not compare as only used mp3s that had never been beat grid calculated or engine processed. When I first bought my technics in 1997 I had a kl10 mixer by gemini that had kill switches (back then just cutting a frequency was cool lol)....I still own the technics I bought and they are still going strong. I think this Denon kit is the best since the vestax days for the money. You only need sync and bpms if you can not hear a mix, next we will be wanting software to do military scratches so we can smoke a spliff and chat…the 8 pads cues slices samples everything, I think for the cash these rock the dj market. Either I am old and easily impressed but unless these fail in the first couple of years I am a real Denon fan.

I would have liked a 10" platter but for scratching the 3900`s 9" vinyl still floats my boat without killing my records.

Give Denon some credit for trying to go up against pioneer. Remember that technics died and so did vestax…and even now technics are not as strong reborn so unless you can afford the top players Denon are your friend


#13

It’s not just for sync…It’s for everything else.

Do you own the X1800? Are you aware the FX requires correct BPM to work well, e.g. Delay, Echo, Ping Pong

Have you heard about Soundswitch, the lighting hardware which is now owned by InMusic. The very first step to use it is to ensure that tracks are gridded and bpm is spot on, otherwise you will end up with a bad light show

Resolume support has been announced as well…guess what that needs grids and BPM as well.

Beat jump, Autoloop etc all work better with correct BPM

Even simple library sorting requires correct BPM. I sort my tracks by BPM and Key at gigs.

I looked at the wrong bpms again just now

they are off by a third of the actual bpm (1/3) in either direction

eg a 100 bpm song is calculated as 133 or 67bpm.


#14

I already raised this issue several months ago. Denon are fully aware of it already.


#15

Hey folks,

We’re in the process of further improving our downbeat and BPM detection algorithms. We’ve made BPM detection improvements already in 1.2 for both Engine Prime and the Prime players and are continuing to look for ways to improve this.

In the meanwhile, it may be helpful to play with the detection ranges - if you are getting oddball BPMs (ie: 97 instead of 120) try setting the detection range to the highest (98-195). This may work around some of the slower false detections.


#16

Hi Mufasa. Yes I own the X1800 but at the moment using my x1600 as I have been trying to compare, I have issues with the x1800 regarding the filter and not 100% convinced I like the sweep effects, but more then aware this is the mixer for the decks and software

The primes I own are for my home set up and wont be clubbing, On my sc3900s I have 4 hot cues and just never bothered correcting the bpm`s as I never used the sync and mixed only by ear, for loops I was using my korg kaos pad and Redsound soundbite sampler mostly & never used the loop on the sc3900

But now I am having all the same issues everyone is mentioning regarding the bpms, beat grid, loops & effects, as now on the primes. I am slowly going through my tunes to get the correct bpms

I have been swapping between my mixers for weeks, I think I will end up x1800 for sure just with my koas pad as the redsound sampler is now redundant.

With InBrand owning alesis akai maudio etc etc now soundswitch to they are becoming a big player on the scene, which maybe a good or bad thing for the market.

As you mention the beat grid does need sorting for all these thing to work 100% as they should, it is I think the biggest gripe people have.


#17

Thanks for the response Vince. Sadly using that angle totally messes up pretty much all of my rap/hip hop stuff. Which is a lot. That’s the range I originally analyzed my library with.

I guess a better fix which has already been mentioned is just giving us a way to correct it. On the players too!

We appreciate your work and will be waiting to see what further improvements come!!


#18

My fix has been to find the track in my iTunes library and write in the BPM that it detected, It’s worked perfectly so far.


#19

Observation

The fabulous Denon DJ X1800 Prime mixer on “Auto” mode detects the right bpm.

Perhaps they can borrow the BPM detection algorithm from the X1800. :wink:

If you use Engine connect though it obtains the BPM from the players.

#GIGO

134 bpm on player :broken_heart: 105 bpm on mixer :sparkling_heart:


#20

Oh wow!! Interesting and good to know!